Friday, October 12, 2007

Ode to JamyHawk aka How to Fold KK??

It wouldn't be fair if I used a title without directing readers to the originator's site so go check out JamyHawk's blog if you haven't yet.

Well, I'd love to get your thoughts here. It was a very tricky spot and I wasn't sure what to do.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3828157071: Table Copper Mesa - $3/$6 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:00:39 ET - 2007/10/11
Seat 1: blumpster ($710.10)
Seat 2: budco33 ($496.65)
Seat 3: angelsach ($609.75)
Seat 4: RecessRampage ($512.50)
Seat 5: Fold U Fool ($326.50)
Seat 6: DaBruns ($797.90)
Seat 7: bose2 ($120)
Seat 8: jurassicjesus ($538.15)
Seat 9: SecretSurface ($703.10)
angelsach posts the small blind of $3
RecessRampage posts the big blind of $6
The button is in seat #2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [Ks Kc]
Fold U Fool folds
DaBruns folds
jurassicjesus calls $6
SecretSurface folds
blumpster calls $6
budco33 folds
angelsach folds
RecessRampage raises to $27
jurassicjesus folds
blumpster calls $21

Pretty standard. I'm in the BB, everyone limps so I bump it up.

*** FLOP *** [8s 6s 7c]
RecessRampage bets $52
blumpster raises to $683.10, and is all in
RecessRampage has 15 seconds left to act
RecessRampage has requested TIME

This is where it gets interesting. I hated this board. This board is almost worse than seeing an ace on the flop here considering he limp/called my raise. And then I bet out and all of a sudden, he shoves? I had approximately 70 seconds in my time bank and I used up almost all of it. I couldn't think of what he had. 99? AsKs? As7s? 88, 77, 66, 67, or 78? If he had AsKs, I am assuming he would raise preflop so unless this was his version of a variation play, I'm tossing that out as one of his holdings. As7s? That's very possible. A pair with top kicker and nut flush draw. Any of the pocket pair that becomes a set also makes sense. TT or above would surely raise preflop and the all in really doesn't make sense. After a while, I read this all in as not so much a way to get me to fold but rather an overbet for value. Only hand that I could see him do this with really was narrowed down to a set or two pair or As7s. Maybe I'm just too tight. But this is what I did...

RecessRampage folds
Uncalled bet of $631.10 returned to blumpster
blumpster mucks
blumpster wins the pot ($164)

The following chat ensued which was interesting. I wasn't sure if he continued to just play me or not but I don't care. That wasn't a spot I wanted to put my money in. A lot of people say you have to push marginal edges. But if I know that I could find better spots, that's what I would do. This was not an instance where I thought I have that "marginal edge." In fact, this was a situation where either I had a marginal edge or I was a significant dog.

blumpster: noooooooooooooo
blumpster: you fold qq?
RecessRampage: dude
RecessRampage: you have no idea
RecessRampage: it hurt...
blumpster: ill tell you what i had if u do
RecessRampage: you have AIM?
RecessRampage: or yahoo chat?
blumpster: whats wrong with here
RecessRampage: ok fine.
RecessRampage: I don't like to admit to the whole table
RecessRampage: I had KK
blumpster: you had outs
RecessRampage: lol
RecessRampage: yeah, I figured

He ended up not telling me what he had but I didn't press either. I really didn't care. I felt that I made a good fold regardless of the chat. And if he didn't have it, it illustrates the power of the overbet for value.


Anonymous said...

"And if he didn't have it, it illustrates the power of the overbet for value."

How can he overbet for value if he didn't have it?

Anyway, back to the hand. Bad lay down. Have you watched the WSOP final table? This is even worse than Lee Child's QQ against Jerry Yang's JJ. You even got KK!

You bet $52 and before you finished pushing in your money, blumpster said "I am all in." You then got so confused, stood up and said "I don't think I could lay this down." Walked around then finally you said, "blumpster, I am going to show your some respect, and I am laying this hand down." Then you open fold KK.

I bet some random dude at the table immediately told you, "Bad lay down, bad lay down."

If there is a WSOP hole camera, you should be able to see blumpster's hand, which is JJ, just like what Jerry Yang had.

Alan aka RecessRampage said...

"And if he didn't have it, it illustrates the power of the overbet for value."

How can he overbet for value if he didn't have it?

Point well taken. I guess I should say the power of all in.

Interesting "thought process" of thinking the guy has JJ. So he chooses to limp from late position with JJ and then just calls a raise and then shoves over the top of my flop c-bet? I don't see it but if that's your read, I respect it.

And don't bet too light. No one said bad laydown. Maybe they all thought it, but no one said it.

I remember the Yang's JJ vs Child's QQ and I did think that was a bad fold by him.

Maybe it is a bad fold. I just know that I can't make that call here. Maybe that's a leak in my game.

Nonetheless, I'm still ok with my fold. Better to find a better spot. Mr Anonymous, thanks for your comments nonetheless. I just wish you described your thought process more eloquently than just handing out judgements. And btw, I really didn't want to tell him I had KK (I would never open fold live). But since his read seemed right on (he called out QQ), I thought, what the hell.

Mike Maloney said...

Ha, love the jackasses who criticize people's play in blogs, and do it as 'Anonymous'. Impressive.

It's probably a good fold. It's a tough fold, and definitely one that makes you question what you did, but in the end, I think your read is right, and you have to lay that down.

WillWonka said...

I also think it is a good fold...

What kind of hands limps and then calls a big raise.. umm... perhaps a suited connector.... say T9s

Much better spots to get your money in.

So why does he push??? Like you said.. Overbet for value... push away flush draws.. who knows..

I just know how to click the fold button.

jamyhawk said...

I agree with Mike. I lay that down 75% of the time. I will say it depends on the read I have been getting from blumpster. If I saw him overbetting a lot of pots, I may have gambled with him, but I will assume you didn't have that read on him. Your read was that he is capable of overbetting for value.

After his comments though, I would put him on flush draw. I think he would have typed in what he had if it was a set. Or not said anything at all. Him asking you what you had helps him validate his overbet to take down the pot.

Still, with Axsooted flush draw, you were only 55% to win. Q high flush draw, 66% chance to win. I think there are better opportunities to risk a full buy in.

Good fold.

Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

This decision most definitely relies more on your read than anything else as far as I'm concerned, but I would be very tempted to call there. The only hand I would really be concerned about was Aces, and he just didn't play it preflop like Aces so much, since he didn't open raise from middle position. Otherwise, would he push in that much with a set or a flopped straight? I laugh at that approach, I think no chance in hell he plays any of those hands that way. Not saying he wouldn't be willing to go to the felt on the flop with them, but no way he just up and pushes allin for 6 hundy on top right on the flop with that strong a hand. He *has* to know you're likely folding here.

I say he had AK with the flush draw, or possibly an overpair lower than yours, or possibly some kind of combination hand like you said, like top pair, nut flush draw and Ace overcard, or straight and flush draw, something like that. I doubt you were behind on the flop there.

That said, as I've said myself many, many times, folding one pair on a scary flop to a huge bet is almost never wrong, all things being equal.

Nice hand, interesting to think about.

bayne_s said...

Bad folds hurt less than bad calls.

Flopped straight he played poorly unless you are up against a calling station who you believe will say "really?".

Most likely scenarios in my mind are pair of 7s + Nut Flush, OESD + pair or JsTs or As9s. You are flipping a coing against any of those hands anyway.

Anonymous said...

Lay the hand down and move on. Like you said it's a cash game and you can find a better spot. I'd also be looking for a hand to trap that guy with.

I say he either flopped a set or a straight with 9s Ts or more likely 4s 5s. Either way he flopped a monster and was overbetting for value hoping you were the donk that can't fold an overpair but at the same time worrying about outs that could beat him.

And for anonymous, I love playing donks like you at the live cash tables. I'll overbet all day on my made hands and you'll pay me off time and time again.

surflexus said...

His original limp in makes me suspect a middle pair which makes it a terrible flop for you. I think he was going for the "overbet" with a made set and it was a wise lay down.

Gnome said...

I agree with folding. Your best point is that, "This was a situation where either I had a marginal edge or I was a significant dog."
I find that better players are more likely than fish to check-raise all in as an overbet for value with a strong hand like a flopped straight or set. Of course, those "better players" may also make the same move with a big drawing hand.
At worst, you're making a small error by folding. It's usually the right move.

SubZero said...

Have to agree with all those in the 'fold' camp.
It's a horrible flop,
it's bang in the middle of a position limp/caller's range, and if you are currently ahead it's very likely it's not by much.

It was a good fold, if not an easy one. If you were up against a set, be glad he got the minimum from you. If you were up against a straight, ditto.

Well played.

AnguilA said...

Only reasonable holdings are a pair+draw or a set/straight. You're either a huge dog or flipping a coin. Much better to wait for another spot

Klopzi said...

I love commenting so late after the fact, but that's just what I'm going to do.

Against a solid opponent, you have to fold KK here in the absence of any further information. The pot pre-flop wasn't big enough to justify calling the push. And your bet on the flop didn't commit you to the pot either.

Generally, I fold here and start to look for a way to get my money back in a later hand. As much as it sucks to fold KK here, I think you made the right call.