The above quote was NOT by me. Actually, I didn't even play in the tournament last night. I was gonna work late and since my wife was going out of town on Wed, and I opted to do dinner with her and work out on my Bowflex. By the time all was said and done, it was 9pm. I probably could have played instead but there were times in the past where I would force myself to play even when I'm not feeling it and the results were generally miserable. So instead, I decided to opt out. Plus, it's early enough in the year that I figured not attending one or two here and there won't hurt my point standings (it's hard to hurt it when you have none... ha ha ha ha ha).
Also, I know I've been relatively keen about keeping people's names off but now, unless someone tells me to keep it off, I'm gonna put it in because it's just too complicated to try to describe someone without their names. I'm guessing first name/nicknames are fair games. Again, if you have a problem, let me know.
Well, the quote really shows how ridiculous that house is... I've seen a lot of bad and nasty beats online and I've heard a lot of people say "oh my god... only on (insert online poker site here)!" Well, I should invite all those people to this house. Yes, the House. The House of Bad Beats. The title hand happened when it was down to 4 people. With the escalating blinds and such, I think the raise is understandable. But instead of me trying to describe a hand where I wasn't present for, I'll just copy and paste the email exchange that I had with my buddy JT. (I've edited portions of the email, mainly for his safety):
Key hand was when I was UTG and raised to 100 with J/10 suited. Vamp and new guy folds and Patrick went all-in. We pretty much stayed away from each other when it was 4 handed. I thought to myself he's got something big. Well, with my raise I was left with about 210 in chips. I had Patrick covered, he had 170ish. So it pretty much came down to me wanting to gamble and take a crack. Well, I did (as you can assume). Pat flips over KK, and I'm actually feeling good about this hand (no lie). Flop comes 9-2-K. He trips up but I got a gut shot. Turn is a Q, making my straight. River is a blank and I win. Against pocket pair like KK or AA, I think the best winning percentage against those are suited connectors. Anyway, with Pat out I was pretty confident in winning the whole thing. Last hand of the night and I got a comfortable chip lead, I got dealt A-Q. I raised to 150 (blinds at 25-50). Vamp calls. New guys goes all-in, he's got 163 left. So it's just 13 more to me. I obviously call - BUT what I didn't do and I'm not sure if it's a mistake was to put Vamp all-in. Probably was a mistake. Any, she calls and flop comes 2-5-Q and I immediately put her all-in. She thinks, waddles about it, and eventually calls. I got A-Q, she's got A-10, new guy has K-Q. I got top pair with top kicker. Turn and river are blanks and I take them both out.
Good ending for him but in my mind, a VERY questionable call. Once I called him out on that, he defended his position by saying this:
Well, there was also some history to go as well. Let me explain. There was a hand earlier in the night. I got A-10 suited (hearts) utg and raise it 16 (blinds at 4/8, should of raised more). I get 4 callers. Flop comes A-J-5. Pat's up first and fires 45. Fold, fold, I call (so it's just me and him). Next card is a Q hearts. 2 hearts on the board. Pat goes all-in and has me covered. So I'm left with a decision. I got A with medium kicker, flush draw and gutshot straight draw. Do I risk it all? I put him on 2 pair, maybe even trips (5s). Decision, decision. And what do I do, I fold. I can't risk it all on a draw and a medium hand. It's early in the tourny and I still got chips to play with. Turns out Pat had A-6. I had him beat, but he beat me in play. SOOOO, when it came down to the hand below, the revenge factor was definitely playing a huge role in my decision making. Not a good route to go most of the time, but hey, sometimes you got to gamble. And seriously, I was feeling good about my J-10.
Btw, utg stands for "under the gun" as in first to act after the blinds, for all you nonpoker afficionados. I love it. "And seriously, I was feeling good about my J-10." REALLY!? WHY!? Cuz it's like your initials??? And very questionable fold in my view. Actually, in a tournament situation, unless I feel like I'm drawing dead, I don't think I can fold a pair and a flush draw. But, then again, I am the same clown that folded trips with a nut flush draw to a top pair, medium kicker in the big tournament so who am I to talk (I really don't want to talk about it so don't ask me. Jonjon can probably give you a better insight on that one). And this might be the last time JT will let me put excerpts of our email exchange on this blog...
Any thoughts on this matter would be welcome. Also, I will respond to any comments posted if you want to discuss the hands more.
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An addendum to this post... One thing to consider also is why did you call the bet on the flop? I mean what card were you looking for to justify the call if at that point, you weren't sure that your hand is good? And would he really bet out that big on the flop with trips? Maybe he would, but if that's your concern, why call? Or if you were concerned that he had a bigger ace, why call? Or two pair, why call? If the Q on the turn scares you (even though it gave you additional outs in case you were behind), then you're putting him on AQ at which point, you shouldn't have called the flop bet. Only conceivable hand that he could have at that point is QJ. In other words, he took the lead on the flop to see if he could steal. He was gonna check except turn comes a Q to complete his second pair. But really. Other than that, I just can't see any other hands that could be beating you with the betting sequence (if he had AK, he would have reraised preflop to thin out the field a little more). Again, just another thought.
Well, I didn't think our e-mail would appear verbatum. But that's cool, it will be open for discussion. Anyway, back to justifying my A-10 fold. Some key things Alan left out. 1) I still had a comfortable chip stack so I wasn't going to rush into risking it all with the 4th best hand out there. 2) I was playing well that night so I was confident that I would be able to get those chips back (which I did) 3) Pat has a tendency to fire away when he's first to act just to feel out the competition. His 45 bet seemed about right for this move of his, hence the call. But for those of you who has played him, he is loose aggressive at times BUT also tight aggressive. At this point, his 45 meant nothing to me but a feeler bet. Should I have reraised? Obviously, but hindsight is 20/20. 4) After the flop bet of 45, he goes all-in on the turn. Sure I got outs, but I am not risking it all on a draw.
This reminds me of an email I sent earlier describing a Main Event hand in which Paul Wasicka had almost the same situation I had. He was in an all-in situation. If he won, he'd be very healthy in chips. If he lost, he's out. Obviously there are differences in the scenario but the mentality is the same. Why risk it all when you don't know you have the nuts. It was very early in the tourny and I had time to get it all back.
As for my J-10 decision, yes I knew he had something big. And yes I knew I was behind. But I needed to do something, and something fast or else Pat would of ran away with it. The other two players played straight up poker, which is good, but in a tourny setting, you need to be creative. Giving away blinds and not contesting pots is NOT how to play and it was obvious that Pat and I were the only ones to understand this. Anyway, as you saw in my e-mail I even knew I was behind. My statement of "I think the best winning percentage against those are suited connectors". So with that in my head, Pat just scooping up uncontested pots b/c of his position (I was to his right so I couldn't battle it out with for the blinds per say without a good hand), I needed to take a gamble. I was fully prepared to see anything from AA to 22 to 5-6 suited. I knew you have to get lucky sometimes to win and this "felt" like the time to go. Bad call? OBVIOUSLY. Bad call, during that time, in that situation, with the opponents left, I didn't think so. I wouldn't of made that play with say Alan or Sia and Patrick still in the game.
ONE more thing: just so you know. We've had 4 "major" tournies so far and I've placed in each one. Last year in the point totals, I was in 2nd for most of the year but ran out of gas at the end. This year, I've only attended 3 games, placed in 2. Currently in 2nd place (I know, it's early). Not too many people playing at Park Ave have that claim. Not to rub it in or anything.....but I guess my point is that everyone has their own strategies and reacts to situations differently. I found something that works for me when I put it in place. Are there times when I don't play my A game and am just a total donk. Very much so. But I think that my actions posted on this blog are not totally unjustified and not without thought.
In JT's defense, he's taking this very well. And for those people that are actually reading this comment exchange, this is a fairly typical exchange, normally done over emails.
And JT, I did change a few things in the email above. It wasn't a total verbatim.
One thing I HAVE to point out is that poker is not a game where the end justifies the means. So, you are a good player, no doubt, but winning the tournament OR winning the pot with J-10 vs KK doesn't make that a "correct" call. I don't have my poker calculator handy (I can't get to poker sites from work) but if I recall correctly, KK vs J-10 is like 80% to 20%. Your A-10 hand, had about 28% chance of winning (with 12 outs and again, that does not take into account the chance that either he was bluffing or you had a better hand). I don't want to go into a positive or negative EV discussion because quite frankly, I kinda get the concept but it's a little over my head. But the stats above alone, justifies that if you're gonna call one, the other is a better call. Plus, you mentioned that you could see Pat making that move with anything from pocket pair to 5-6!? I could see him push with that. Reraise though? I don't see it. Patrick is aggressive but not crazy. He won't reraise all in with 5-6. He'll just wait for the next hand and push. Why do it with such a subpar hand. I think your read was off there.
On the other hand, one thing I will make clear. The A-10 hand, upon analysis, to me, is a definite call. However, if I were there with the same situation, it's very likely that I would fold as well. But I know this. I would also fold the J-10 on a reraise if it costs me 200 more. I would push with a lot of hands (actually, almost anything) but I won't necessarily commit myself if I get popped back.
are we the only ones reading this?
Quite possibly... Don't worry, I'm sure Sia will throw his 2 cents in later.
Well. There honestly is too much here to respond to, but i'll start with the obvious. I of course would have layed down the J/10. I don't remember how big the blinds were at the time but perhasp the first mistake was raising to 100 (and maybe feeling committed on any raise even though you really weren't). I will say this, I think it would have been a good play against many of the PAPT players, but not Patrick. In my opinion Patrick is a player that you have to try and beat post flop as opposed to pre-flop (a lot of times he stays aggressive post flop when he clearly hasn't hit the flop and can therefore be susceptible to a trap). If it were Ramel that made the all in raise then I think it would have been more justified. Also, with the other two players playing straight up poker, I think it would have been easier to get creative with them as opposed to Patrick who was clearly ahead in that situation. I will admit that it's a tough hand to get away from since you made a substantial initial investment. Anyway, in no way is a single questionable call an indictment on your game....but that is a pretty bad beat obviously...especially since he flopped trips. Ouch.
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