Thursday, October 16, 2008

200BBs deep cash - Should I be willing to stack off?

I'm pulling a bait and switch here... well, not really. I am gonna talk about a couple of situations I encountered when playing deep stack tables but I've just been running so bad that I feel like if I wanted to, I can compile a bad beat post every night (even though, after I saved this hand, I stacked off a guy who had KK with my AJ sooted when the flush hit the river)...

But you know you're running bad when on this flop, I actually cringed when our cards are flipped. Fortunately, this guy was ubershort... I have no idea why he didn't jam me pre. And yes, obv, I raised pre.

9 players 2-4NL

*** FLOP *** [5s 2h 9d]
RecessRampage has 15 seconds left to act
RecessRampage bets $26
teabag2512 calls $26, and is all in
RecessRampage shows [Ad Ac]
teabag2512 shows [7c 7h]

*** TURN *** [5s 2h 9d] [6c]
*** RIVER *** [5s 2h 9d 6c] [8s]
RecessRampage shows a pair of Aces
teabag2512 shows a straight, Nine high
teabag2512 wins the pot ($83) with a straight, Nine high
RecessRampage adds $9.70

The dollar amount is next to nothing but it just fucks with your mind. I don't blame him for calling the flop. I mean I'm betting out there with ATC if I'm raising for only $26 more but it's more an illustration of how Fulltilt likes fucking with my head... that still doesn't stop me from coming back so I apparently like... woah, I'm not even gonna finish that sentence.

Ok, on to the thoughts I had when playing the deep stack tables. One thing I am kinda struggling with right now is figuring out where the line is in terms of playing aggressively vs cautiously when I have a decent draw. I have no problem playing aggressively but I don't want to be an aggrotard either. So, I always feel like I need to check myself to make sure that I am correctly being aggressive as opposed to just being reckless.

Also note, I'm using the hands below as examples BUT I am gonna change or edit out the results because I want more of a situational thought... hmmmm, let me see. How can I explain that better. Whether I won or lost the pot is irrelevant and actually, how the hand ends is also irrelevant. My question, as you will see, came more out of while the opponent was thinking, I thought to myself "what am I gonna do if my opponent does (raise or call)?" (folding obv ends the hand so I don't have to ask myself that question)

Also assume I have no information on the player in this first hand.

Deep 2-4NL Full Ring
Relevant stacks

Seat 4: lvis2000 ($570.50)
Seat 7: RecessRampage ($885)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [6d 5d]
UTG calls $4
1 fold
lvis2000 has 15 seconds left to act
lvis2000 calls $4
2 folds
RecessRampage raises to $22 from CO
button, SB, BB all fold
UTG folds
lvis2000 calls $18

Someone is inevitably gonna ask why I raised pre with 56s. I have no good answers that will satisfy you so I'm not even gonna go there. If I say "to punish the limpers" some people will be happy so I'll say that.

*** FLOP *** [3d 4h 8d]
lvis2000 has 15 seconds left to act
lvis2000 checks
RecessRampage bets $42
lvis2000 has 15 seconds left to act
lvis2000 calls $42

The flop, considering my cards is a pretty awesome one, obviously. I think based on this board, I should be willing to stack off right? That's obvious to all, I'm assuming, even if we're deep. Yes or no?

Better yet, if lvis2000 checkraises me, what would you do? Would you just call or ship it in?

*** TURN *** [3d 4h 8d] [Kd]
lvis2000 has 15 seconds left to act
lvis2000 checks
RecessRampage ???

Now your flush card hit. What do you do here? Bet for value? Or check to induce value on the river? I think that's easy.

But the question is, what if you bet and he jams? Granted, since he only started with $570, it's not as much but are you willing to call off that much with a 6 high flush (yes, I know it's K high but for all intensive purposes, I think you know what I mean)? What if he also started the hand with $800. Let's say you bet like $105 (pot is $120ish) and he raises you to like $500, effectively committing himself (by leaving himself $135). Do you ship it in? In other words, on the flop, you thought you flopped gold. And on the turn when the card that made your hand comes, all of a sudden the opponent acts like he hit it bigger which is also possible. Does being ddep make a difference?

Just curious as to the thoughts and how different it might be at a deep table.

Ok, the next one, the BB is a little more aggressive but probably solidly so. Nothing too crazy or out of line so his reraise range is decent but so is my button raising range so I don't think either one of us are going out of line.

2-4NL Deep full ring

Relevant stacks
BB ($961.90)
Seat 7: RecessRampage ($794)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [Kh Jh]
everyone folds to me on the button
RecessRampage raises to $14
SB folds
BB has 15 seconds left to act
BB raises to $48
RecessRampage calls $34

We're both deep but anyone let this hand go here? What's your calling range if you fold here? I would assume that your calling range would be polarized so you can list them out. If you say JJ+ or something ridiculous like that... well, that's just ridiculous. Again, keep in mind that the BB here is RRing me fairly light. Another question here would be would you 4 bet here? I wouldn't and I have my reasons that I could go into but I won't for now just so I don't taint anyone else's thoughts first.

*** FLOP *** [6h 8c 2h]
BB has 15 seconds left to act
BB bets $64
RecessRampage has 15 seconds left to act
RecessRampage has requested TIME
RecessRampage xxx

Raise or call here? If raise, to how much? If you raise and he reraises you, do you ship it in?

*** TURN *** [6h 8c 2h] [Td]
BB xxxx

Now what? I'm not gonna tell you what the BB did but instead I'll offer you a few scenarios.

What would you do if he checks? Check behind or bet? What if he checkraises you? Ship it in?

What if he fires out another bullet? Raise with the intent of calling a shove? I guess this depends on the previous street's action. Let's say you raised him and he just called but he bets out again. Now what? Shove? Just call?

These are some questions that were swirling in my head as I played this hand out. Again, this may not be the same questions I would have if we were only 100BBs deep. But with 200BBs deep, I wasn't sure if that changes a lot in these situations or not. Thoughts would be appreciated. And since Brue will respond if I link him cuz he's a link whore, Brue, here's my linkage to you. Comment away you math geek.


spritpot said...

Whoa linkage!!! OK comment coming right up. I like the raise with 65s, although with diamonds, it's a little loose. I'd wait for some spades. I like a bet bet bet line in that hand. On the flop if he raises, definitely 3-bet-getting-itin. On the turn, I will be bluffing that Kd no matter what my hand is in that situation, and I have to protect those bluffs by betting a flush as well. If he raises...I'll admit it's not a great spot. If he were super-nitty folding might be an option, but in general I'd ship it in and hope he has three eights or K8 or Ad4s or something. But even if you are bet/folding, you are NOT turning your hand into a bluff, since I think you do get CALLED down there by worse hands, and you want to protect against another diamond hitting. I like your malapropism "for all intensive purposes". Dude, it's for all "intents and purposes". LOL intensive purposes. Still trying to wrap my head around that one.

Moving on to the KhJh hand...folding, calling, and 4-betting are all things that I'd do there, mixing it up based on my mood, game flow, etc.. Hands that would be in my calling range at least sometimes...22+,suited one-and-two gappers, suited aces, any spade.

Based on your description of this guy, if I had called preflop, I would raise this flop but not too big. I want him to be able to either call and then check-fold the turn, or put in a small 3-bet bluff and fold if I ship. Those would be the best two outcomes in the hand, other than getting it in and sucking out, obviously. Or holding up vs. QhTh ROR.

If you raise the flop, say to 150, and he calls so the pot is 400 or so and then he donks the turn for 300...gross. The offsuit T is like the crappiest card in the deck. If he took that line, I'd expect him to have some draw that hit a T, like Th9h, QhTh, even Tc9c. Sometimes a set of tens. I wouldn't really expect to see 97. At that point if you shove you really don't have much fold equity, and some of your outs might be dead. If he's a solid player, I can't see him bet/folding this turn really...maybe with 77 or something. Your equity in the pot goes way down once you miss on the turn, so I'd probably fold at that point.


Gnome said...

Hand 1: Bet and get it in on the turn. Stacks have to be deeper before you want to be folding turned flushes. And against a limp-caller preflop, I don't think you can assume your flush isn't good.
Hand 2: It's going to be hard for you to represent a super strong hand on the flop, so a line I kind of like is flatting the flop and raising the turn. This line fails horribly against an opponent who always thinks flop flats are weak, so against that kind of player you might just raise the flop.
Another thing I like to do against LAGtards is just flat calling the flop and turn till you hit. LAGs never expect anyone to be capable of *not* raising a flush draw, so your implied odds can still be pretty good if you hit. And calling two streets and folding the river if you miss isn't too bad against the right type of opponent, especially if he's a calling station who you couldn't bluff with a raise on earlier streets anyway.

goooooood girl said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
RaisingCayne said...

Admitted cash game donkey here, but here's my take...

-Hand #1, I definitely bet large with the small flush on the turn. Checking to induce value on the river seems -EV to me, given it would give opponent a free card and likely some possible outs to catch up. And to your further inquiries, I would be willing to go broke here with a fairly well disguised flush, and would call a check/raise jam here.

-Hand #2... I, being a bit of a pansy, would've likely let the hand go pre-flop. While the BB is reraising you light, as you state, KJs is pretty freaking ultra-light isn't it. Had I made the call you did, I would just call the flop bet too. Reraising seems like a huge gamble to me, with villain likely to shove a wide range, and then you're drawing from behind for a massive pot. After the turn I would fall into my weak/tight check/call (depending on pot odds) mode. I'm far too big of a pansy to shove this hand on this flop or turn. If villain would've fired another bullet on the turn, I'm likely to fold, unless getting appropriate odds to call on the draw, assuming a heart was needed.

Like the comments above though, very insightful. And authored by more accomplished cash game players than myself.

spritpot said...

first off, bruechips is not a math geek, he's a math WHORE.

as far as hand analysis goes...i don't have much to say bc i'm reading your blog from an apple store (i'm a whore for free internet on vacation)...but i will say this - WTF are you goofing around with both of those hands? hearts and diamonds? c'mon dude...we know that the COMBINED equity of all 26 red cards in the deck do not even come close to approaching the equity of 2 spades. c'mon, get with the program.


goooooood girl said...

i like......