Tuesday, May 12, 2009

Yet another Question for the KK hand

Great responses so far so I thank you all for that. I think most of you mentioned to cbet about $30-35 and a lot of people went as far (I think) to say "to find out where you are at." I've decided that I actually hate betting for information. But that's neither here nor there. My question is this.

Is your C-bet a bluff or a value bet?

In other words, if you bet and a guy in position calls you, now what? Do you fire another bullet on a blank turn? What cards are you afraid of seeing on the turn? Or, the shorter list might be, what cards do you want to see on the turn?

The reason I ask that is that I'm trying to ask myself this question more and more before I bet. Am I betting for value or am I bluffing? For those of you that say that you're betting for value, what would you do with the hand if you get raised on the flop? If you say fold, then you're effectively bluffing. I mean you might as well have 25o and it wouldn't make a difference, would it (at least if you look at the flop situation in a vacuum)?

If you say you're betting for value but if you get raised, then you realize that even though you thought you're betting for value, it turns out you might not have a good enough hand to withstand a raise... I can buy that argument too. But do you think an AJ would raise here or just call you?

Honestly, I guess my biggest concern is having two people behind me right? In other words, I want to know your thoughts more on what to do on the turn then if you cbet and just get called. Do you check/call turn? Then what do you do on the river? Hope for check/check?

Great comments so far... hopefully this will continue. I'll def post the hand but I'll wait till tomorrow to give some of the stragglers some time to catch up on my blog.

One quick pimpage - I gave Brue some shit about his offer to coach but I'll say this... if you guys like my hand history stuff, you should def be reading Brack/Brue's blog. Their recap of High Stakes poker has been very solid and entertaining at the same time. The HHs could be a bit dry sometimes but I think there's a lot of gold there and the stakes that Brue plays is def not indicative of his skill level (he's more of a .05/.10 fishie swimming in the 1-2nl waters :) )


Champ said...

You are betting for value and protection. To get away from that thought...is nitty. Against common ranges you are ahead of most, so you are not bluffing per definition. In that, your c-bet, can make a worse hand call (small PP's,draws, TP, etc) or a better hand fold.(2-pair, set, Pair w/ combo draw)

To your commentators:
"Finding out where you at", is not a REASON to bet, I guess it could be considered a side benefit.

I am only worried about AA, QT, 99, 88 primarily, not so much about 2 pairs...which narrows ranges dramatically. (Maybe naive)

Now, as you mentioned. C-betting 3/4 of a flop in this texture, turns your hand face up, imo. (JJ-AA) But it also takes a special player to make a move over the top with just air.

I would look to get to showdown as cheaply as possible...AFTER the flop. And I think it fits into the plan, because hands like sets, and 2-pair etc...are going to be semi-gun shy.

BWoP said...

It might just be semantics, but if you are betting to find out if you are betting for value or (semi?)-bluffing, then aren't you betting for information?

I don't know that c-betting necessarily turns your hand face-up. Checking might actually give away more information than you'd like. It just invites a move from a later position player, and then you are forced to respond. My guess is that you're not gonna CR here, so checking just invites more aggression when you're already in a bit of a conundrum.

If you get called in position, I *might* bet 1/2 pot if a non-straighty card appears on the turn. Depends on my experience with villain(s). Straight draws are very much within range, and I think against a possible draw you have to v-bet in this situation. A lot of people seem to like to make big moves on the turn, so if there is heavy action, I would probably dump even if the turn was a non-straighty card. If villain(s) flat, then it's probably a check situation on the river - call if non-straighty card on river and villain bets.

spritpot said...

Oh, Pinky...you know how to get a long comment out of me.

The bet is definitely not a bluff, it's kind of a value/protection bet. First of all, I don't think it's impossible that you'd get called by a worse hand, or shoved on by a worse hand from one of the shorter stacks (which I would be calling). Also when there are this many people in the pot, no matter what they have, you just want to start folding out hands.

There is value to protection bets.
Like consider a situation where you raised a pre-flop limper with AK and you are 100% sure he is set-mining. He will put more money in the pot if and only if he makes a set. So the frop comes K-high and he checks to you. Should you bet? Yes! If he made a set, he'll raise or call and you can then fold. More importantly, if he HASN'T made a set, he will fold. This may seem bad for you, since you he has the worst hand so you don't want him to fold, but it's not like you're going to get more value by betting or calling bets on later streets, since he will only be making or calling these bets if he makes a set on the turn. So betting is correct, even if it allows him to "play perfectly" against you.

You've got a similar situation here. Here's a group of four hands that could plausibly have called you prefrop, and will be folding pretty quickly on this frop (I think):

AsQc, 8h7h, Ah9h, 6s6c

Looks like an innocuous group, yea? But between the four of them, they've got 17 outs to beat you. So you want to go ahead and bet to make all these hands fold. That's why I said in my earlier comment, heads-up, I'd maybe check to induce bluffs/control pot, but with this many players, betting for protection is better.

The other reason to bet here is that the deep stacks that have position you are somewhat frozen by the short-stacked (and presumably loose/donkish) players that have already checked. They could easily have hit a piece of this board and will not want to fold, so it's tough for zoit or bomb to make it $100 with total air. If the positions of the stacks were reversed, so that if you checked you'd give the shorties a chance to bluff and the big stacks had already checked, that would be a good opportunity to check-raise one of the shorties all-in if the big stacks fold to their bet. You're kind of allowing the shorty to make your feeler bet for you, AND getting it in where you're comfortable (for $100 or whatever) but not where you're not (for $200). And again, with the shorty betting, it's tough for a big stack to check/raise him all in for his last $70-100 with air, especially with a couple other players still in the hand.


Champ said...


You don't just bet just for the sake of information alone. "buying information" is not a reason to bet)Wouldn't checking accomplish the same thing, without the spew? What if villain c/r's? You still don't know where you are at, and lost two bets along the way...

Say we had KK again, except the flop was X-X-A. We are not betting just for information sake (if at all). That is old school thought. (read: outdated) That's spewy. We are betting to either make a better hand fold (A-rag), or to make a worse hand call (PP's, MP, draws). Now days, C-bets are so transparent anyway, it often takes 2-3 barrels to follow through with our plan. So firing an information bet on the flop, doesn't really accomplish much...

You should bet /raise:
1. If you believe you can get better hands to fold.

2. If you believe you can get a worse hand to call.

3. To protect a hand.

(all based on ranges per opponents)

Otherwise, don't bet put your money in.

HighOnPoker said...

I think I may've advocated betting 30-35 to see where you were at, but I think I need to elaborate. It isn't just "I don't know if I'm good, so let's bet." That would be stupid. But by betting, it sheds more light on subsequent actions than just checking. I suggest betting because you are probably ahead. 30-35 will likely protect your hand from many lesser hands, get a call from lesser hands who are closer to your hand, and induce a raise by superior hands. It's not just about betting for value OR protection. A good bet will ride that line between those two goals, maximizing the calls from weaker hands, pushing out draws or potential suckouts, and inducing superior hands to make a move. That can all be done with one bet.