tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207694267965942223.post1014181503725510289..comments2024-01-11T04:34:33.017-05:00Comments on RecessRampage - Poker and other stuff: Yet another Question for the KK handAlan aka RecessRampagehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00544791207717813141noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207694267965942223.post-62691385079368452592009-05-14T13:06:00.000-05:002009-05-14T13:06:00.000-05:00I think I may've advocated betting 30-35 to see wh...I think I may've advocated betting 30-35 to see where you were at, but I think I need to elaborate. It isn't just "I don't know if I'm good, so let's bet." That would be stupid. But by betting, it sheds more light on subsequent actions than just checking. I suggest betting because you are probably ahead. 30-35 will likely protect your hand from many lesser hands, get a call from lesser hands who are closer to your hand, and induce a raise by superior hands. It's not just about betting for value OR protection. A good bet will ride that line between those two goals, maximizing the calls from weaker hands, pushing out draws or potential suckouts, and inducing superior hands to make a move. That can all be done with one bet.Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12831176156389777158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207694267965942223.post-81647593001053600562009-05-13T12:35:00.000-05:002009-05-13T12:35:00.000-05:00@ BWOP
You don't just bet just for the sake of in...@ BWOP<br /><br />You don't just bet just for the sake of information alone. "buying information" is not a reason to bet)Wouldn't checking accomplish the same thing, without the spew? What if villain c/r's? You still don't know where you are at, and lost two bets along the way...<br /><br />Say we had KK again, except the flop was X-X-A. We are not betting just for information sake (if at all). That is old school thought. (read: outdated) That's spewy. We are betting to either make a better hand fold (A-rag), or to make a worse hand call (PP's, MP, draws). Now days, C-bets are so transparent anyway, it often takes 2-3 barrels to follow through with our plan. So firing an information bet on the flop, doesn't really accomplish much...<br /><br />You should bet /raise:<br />1. If you believe you can get better hands to fold.<br /><br />2. If you believe you can get a worse hand to call.<br /><br />3. To protect a hand.<br /><br />(all based on ranges per opponents)<br /><br />Otherwise, don't bet put your money in.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16333554956780038647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207694267965942223.post-38225218152909762342009-05-13T12:06:00.000-05:002009-05-13T12:06:00.000-05:00Oh, Pinky...you know how to get a long comment out...Oh, Pinky...you know how to get a long comment out of me.<br /><br />The bet is definitely not a bluff, it's kind of a value/protection bet. First of all, I don't think it's impossible that you'd get called by a worse hand, or shoved on by a worse hand from one of the shorter stacks (which I would be calling). Also when there are this many people in the pot, no matter what they have, you just want to start folding out hands. <br /><br />There is value to protection bets.<br />Like consider a situation where you raised a pre-flop limper with AK and you are 100% sure he is set-mining. He will put more money in the pot if and only if he makes a set. So the frop comes K-high and he checks to you. Should you bet? Yes! If he made a set, he'll raise or call and you can then fold. More importantly, if he HASN'T made a set, he will fold. This may seem bad for you, since you he has the worst hand so you don't want him to fold, but it's not like you're going to get more value by betting or calling bets on later streets, since he will only be making or calling these bets if he makes a set on the turn. So betting is correct, even if it allows him to "play perfectly" against you.<br /><br />You've got a similar situation here. Here's a group of four hands that could plausibly have called you prefrop, and will be folding pretty quickly on this frop (I think):<br /><br />AsQc, 8h7h, Ah9h, 6s6c<br /><br />Looks like an innocuous group, yea? But between the four of them, they've got 17 outs to beat you. So you want to go ahead and bet to make all these hands fold. That's why I said in my earlier comment, heads-up, I'd maybe check to induce bluffs/control pot, but with this many players, betting for protection is better.<br /><br />The other reason to bet here is that the deep stacks that have position you are somewhat frozen by the short-stacked (and presumably loose/donkish) players that have already checked. They could easily have hit a piece of this board and will not want to fold, so it's tough for zoit or bomb to make it $100 with total air. If the positions of the stacks were reversed, so that if you checked you'd give the shorties a chance to bluff and the big stacks had already checked, that would be a good opportunity to check-raise one of the shorties all-in if the big stacks fold to their bet. You're kind of allowing the shorty to make your feeler bet for you, AND getting it in where you're comfortable (for $100 or whatever) but not where you're not (for $200). And again, with the shorty betting, it's tough for a big stack to check/raise him all in for his last $70-100 with air, especially with a couple other players still in the hand.<br /><br />-bruechipsspritpothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07840930703139677178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207694267965942223.post-25518381512465403302009-05-12T22:24:00.000-05:002009-05-12T22:24:00.000-05:00It might just be semantics, but if you are betting...It might just be semantics, but if you are betting to find out if you are betting for value or (semi?)-bluffing, then aren't you betting for information?<br /><br />I don't know that c-betting necessarily turns your hand face-up. Checking might actually give away more information than you'd like. It just invites a move from a later position player, and then you are forced to respond. My guess is that you're not gonna CR here, so checking just invites more aggression when you're already in a bit of a conundrum.<br /><br />If you get called in position, I *might* bet 1/2 pot if a non-straighty card appears on the turn. Depends on my experience with villain(s). Straight draws are very much within range, and I think against a possible draw you have to v-bet in this situation. A lot of people seem to like to make big moves on the turn, so if there is heavy action, I would probably dump even if the turn was a non-straighty card. If villain(s) flat, then it's probably a check situation on the river - call if non-straighty card on river and villain bets.BWoPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02934781459474787598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207694267965942223.post-21864667600969212682009-05-12T17:35:00.000-05:002009-05-12T17:35:00.000-05:00You are betting for value and protection. To get a...You are betting for value and protection. To get away from that thought...is nitty. Against common ranges you are ahead of most, so you are not bluffing per definition. In that, your c-bet, can make a worse hand call (small PP's,draws, TP, etc) or a better hand fold.(2-pair, set, Pair w/ combo draw)<br /><br />To your commentators:<br />"Finding out where you at", is not a REASON to bet, I guess it could be considered a side benefit. <br /><br /><br />I am only worried about AA, QT, 99, 88 primarily, not so much about 2 pairs...which narrows ranges dramatically. (Maybe naive)<br /><br /><br />Now, as you mentioned. C-betting 3/4 of a flop in this texture, turns your hand face up, imo. (JJ-AA) But it also takes a special player to make a move over the top with just air. <br /><br />I would look to get to showdown as cheaply as possible...AFTER the flop. And I think it fits into the plan, because hands like sets, and 2-pair etc...are going to be semi-gun shy.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16333554956780038647noreply@blogger.com