Finishing up the KK hand

Great comments everyone so thank you for that. Hell, Jordan even went as far to do a whole post on it. The reason why I posted this in the first place was because I really wasn't sure what the best course of action was and what I ended up doing resulted in me doing the "right" thing money wise but I was certain that whatever analysis I did at that point would be almost impossible for it to not be results oriented so I decided to pose the question here.

As you loyal readers know, I've pretty much abandoned strategy/poker thought posts and even though part of it could be blamed on me doing other things and not having as much time or the desire to put the effort into blogging, part of me was that I no longer wanted to share my thoughts and hole cards publicly where I don't even change my screenname (even if I did, you can still google recessrampage and you will come here, I think) so I just thought it would be -EV. However, there's a good chance I'm gonna kill my RecessRampage account so I figured I don't really care anymore. But that's for a different post.

On the KK hand, here's the recap.

Full Tilt Poker Game #12167653280: Table Stonewater - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:19:34 ET - 2009/05/11
Seat 1: The Jeltz ($207.15)
Seat 2: ZMAE ($137.25)
Seat 3: eddymoosh ($87.15)
Seat 4: pmow2131 ($358.15)
Seat 5: AAces Again ($159.65)
Seat 6: RecessRampage ($200)
Seat 7: prettydevil1 ($200)
Seat 8: zoitkiller ($298.80)
Seat 9: bombkiller ($273.75)
The Jeltz posts the small blind of $1
ZMAE posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [Kc Kh]
eddymoosh calls $2
pmow2131 folds
AAces Again folds
RecessRampage raises to $9
prettydevil1 has 15 seconds left to act
prettydevil1 folds
zoitkiller calls $9
bombkiller calls $9
The Jeltz folds
ZMAE calls $7
eddymoosh calls $7

I'm not gonna lie, when the two guys behind me called, I was hoping one of the blinds would try to squeeze. Instead, I am in a nightmare situation with KK seeing a flop 5 handed.

*** FLOP *** [Jc 8s 9d]
ZMAE has 15 seconds left to act
ZMAE checks
eddymoosh checks
RecessRampage ???

And this is where I left off. The flop is freakin horrible for KK in a 5 handed pot. With so many callers, the board is more likely to have hit someone. The question is how strong? There was the UTG limper who then called my raise after 3 other callers (including the blind). So I eliminate AA or QQ from UTG because he would have to repop and as a shorty, actually, I felt that it was more likely that he didn't have a pair at all because it would just seem so standard for the shorty to shove in that spot hoping for a race. The question was the BB. He could really have anything so at this point, I wasn't interested in narrowing down his hand range. The CO and the button's range was tricky but I felt that the button would have tried to squeeze if he had a hand like AK or AQ so he probably also had a moderate strength hand.

In other words, a lot of the preflop action lead me to believe that everyone had a moderate strength hand so I was about to bet for approximately $35 like a lot of people advocated. The problem was, if I get called from either the CO or Button, there's really no card I would like to see other than KK. So I felt like I was setting myself off to get bluffed off what could be the best hand. On the same token, I couldn't shove over the top if someone were to raise me so in the end, I decided that if I bet out here, I would be turning what could still be my best hand into a bluff. Rather, I want to see what develops. My thought was that if either the CO or Button bets and the two players in front of me folds, I was gonna call and then lead out on the blank turn. I felt that against the CO/Button's range that would bet the flop, I have a better chance of being ahead. Again, this could be a wrong train of thought but that's what I was thinking (honesty HAS TO count for something, right?). And this is also one of those spots where I would rather have QQ instead of KK so that I would also have a inside straight draw...

So anyways, this is what I did...

RecessRampage checks
zoitkiller has 15 seconds left to act
zoitkiller bets $36
bombkiller folds
ZMAE folds
eddymoosh raises to $78.15, and is all in
RecessRampage folds
RecessRampage adds $9
zoitkiller calls $42.15
eddymoosh shows [Ts Qd]
zoitkiller shows [Jd Jh]
*** TURN *** [Jc 8s 9d] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 8s 9d 5c] [2c]
eddymoosh shows a straight, Queen high
zoitkiller shows three of a kind, Jacks
eddymoosh wins the pot ($199.30) with a straight, Queen high

I was shocked to see the top set from the CO. I couldn't believe that he didn't repop me pre. And again, as I mentioned above, if no one came over the top, I would have called and when the 5 came, I probably would have bet into the guy so I would have lost more money in that scenario but I felt that he could easily do this with JT, T9, AJ which are all realistic holdings. Of course, 88 and 99 came into my head but you really can't always be afraid of sets. And being that my line would be really weird (call flop OOP and then bet into the guy on the turn), I think a lot of worse hands will still call.

Again, I really don't know what the best line to take in this situation. I agree with the thoughts of cbetting but I'm also wondering if varying the amount would be an option. Maybe instead of betting $35-40, what about betting about half pot? Maybe like $25ish? Despite all the comments though, I really hate betting out here because my hand can't stand up to a raise and most hands that I even beat are gonna raise me, including the ones that I am losing to. In other words, all sets, flopped straights, two pair, JT, 9T, 8T will probably all raise me... Betting out just seems a little spewy, even if that's the right answer.

Anyone have a more compelling argument here?

Yet another Question for the KK hand

Great responses so far so I thank you all for that. I think most of you mentioned to cbet about $30-35 and a lot of people went as far (I think) to say "to find out where you are at." I've decided that I actually hate betting for information. But that's neither here nor there. My question is this.

Is your C-bet a bluff or a value bet?

In other words, if you bet and a guy in position calls you, now what? Do you fire another bullet on a blank turn? What cards are you afraid of seeing on the turn? Or, the shorter list might be, what cards do you want to see on the turn?

The reason I ask that is that I'm trying to ask myself this question more and more before I bet. Am I betting for value or am I bluffing? For those of you that say that you're betting for value, what would you do with the hand if you get raised on the flop? If you say fold, then you're effectively bluffing. I mean you might as well have 25o and it wouldn't make a difference, would it (at least if you look at the flop situation in a vacuum)?

If you say you're betting for value but if you get raised, then you realize that even though you thought you're betting for value, it turns out you might not have a good enough hand to withstand a raise... I can buy that argument too. But do you think an AJ would raise here or just call you?

Honestly, I guess my biggest concern is having two people behind me right? In other words, I want to know your thoughts more on what to do on the turn then if you cbet and just get called. Do you check/call turn? Then what do you do on the river? Hope for check/check?

Great comments so far... hopefully this will continue. I'll def post the hand but I'll wait till tomorrow to give some of the stragglers some time to catch up on my blog.


One quick pimpage - I gave Brue some shit about his offer to coach but I'll say this... if you guys like my hand history stuff, you should def be reading Brack/Brue's blog. Their recap of High Stakes poker has been very solid and entertaining at the same time. The HHs could be a bit dry sometimes but I think there's a lot of gold there and the stakes that Brue plays is def not indicative of his skill level (he's more of a .05/.10 fishie swimming in the 1-2nl waters :) )

OMG A poker post!

I'm not really sure what compelled me to post this... But as I was feeling lazy, I opted to skip my workout last night and instead 6 table on FTP and ran into this situation which I thought was kinda interesting.

1-2NL 9 players, I'm in MP

Edit: Cmitch, thanks, I'm an idiot

Seat 1: The Jeltz ($207.15)
Seat 2: ZMAE ($137.25)
Seat 3: eddymoosh ($87.15)
Seat 4: pmow2131 ($358.15)
Seat 5: AAces Again ($159.65)
Seat 6: RecessRampage ($200)
Seat 7: prettydevil1 ($200)
Seat 8: zoitkiller ($298.80)
Seat 9: bombkiller ($273.75)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [Kc Kh]
eddymoosh calls $2
pmow2131 folds
AAces Again folds
RecessRampage raises to $9
prettydevil1 has 15 seconds left to act
prettydevil1 folds
zoitkiller calls $9
bombkiller calls $9
The Jeltz folds
ZMAE calls $7
eddymoosh calls $7

So I get dealt Bayne's favorite hand and then I'm mortified to see 4 callers. Pretty sure seeing a flop with 5 people holding KK is a shitty situation. I mean how often do you go into a flop wishing to hit a set with KK (except Bayne)??

*** FLOP *** [Jc 8s 9d] Pot size $45
ZMAE has 15 seconds left to act
ZMAE checks
eddymoosh checks
RecessRampage ???

So, here's the question. What would you do? In order to prevent anyone from being result oriented, I will post the results later. Being that I haven't posted anything poker related in a while, I might not get much response... or it might take a while for people to catch on/see it but nonetheless, let me know what you think. Do you throw out a standard cbet? If so, how much? Do you check here to see what the others would do? Any reasoning to your answer would be very helpful too.