Sunday, November 11, 2007

A few tourney hands...

From the ironman freeroll, there are a couple of hands that I would like comments on. Here's the first one.

FullTiltPoker Game #4133443622: Iron Man $30,000 Freeroll (30641962), Table 18 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:13:37 ET - 2007/11/10
Seat 1: DrOfDonkology (4,287)
Seat 2: Danter (19,766)
Seat 3: FreshSpade (9,952)
Seat 5: Reddot666 (3,270)
Seat 6: farsitegrind (3,920)
Seat 7: raylapsley (8,040)
Seat 8: LegalRobbery (5,086)
Seat 9: RecessRampage (8,485)
DrOfDonkology antes 50
Danter antes 50
FreshSpade antes 50
Reddot666 antes 50
farsitegrind antes 50
raylapsley antes 50
LegalRobbery antes 50
RecessRampage antes 50
RecessRampage posts the small blind of 250
DrOfDonkology posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #8

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [7s Kh]
Danter folds
FreshSpade folds
Reddot666 folds
farsitegrind folds
raylapsley folds
LegalRobbery folds
RecessRampage raises to 8,435, and is all in
DrOfDonkology has 15 seconds left to act
DrOfDonkology calls 3,737, and is all in
RecessRampage shows [7s Kh]
DrOfDonkology shows [Js Jh]
Uncalled bet of 4,198 returned to RecessRampage
*** FLOP *** [5c 7c 3h]
*** TURN *** [5c 7c 3h] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [5c 7c 3h 2d] [6h]
RecessRampage shows a pair of Sevens
DrOfDonkology shows a pair of Jacks
DrOfDonkology wins the pot (8,874) with a pair of Jacks

So preflop, the pot has T$1150. It's folded around to me so obviously, I have a few choices. I could fold, call, or raise. Well, at this point, I felt like folding or calling would just be bad. There's T$1150 in the pot so at this point, I felt like every pot is worth fighting for. The BB was fairly short but tight so I figured I could still steal this pot. The only problem was that if I raised to 3x the BB and he shoves, I'm pot committed. It would only be T$2237 more to call a pot that at that point would contain T$4500. So, I jammed and the rest is history. So, my first question is, is this a bad move? Should I have been more patient? Should I have raised less? Is calling an option here? I'd love your thoughts.

Then, later, this is the hand I busted out on. Personally, I am ok with my move and I think I would do this almost every time at this stage of the tournament. To give a quick background. We're down to 49 players and basically 4 more players to bust out before another $30 money bump. The blinds and antes are going up significantly and most people's M is below 5. Still, my stack was enough to put a good dent to most people so I was going to ramp up my aggression. And then this happens.

FullTiltPoker Game #4133651321: Iron Man $30,000 Freeroll (30641962), Table 10 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:34:54 ET - 2007/11/10
Seat 1: PocketJaKKd (12,030)
Seat 2: Dianes_Place (8,225)
Seat 3: attheLimit (5,910)
Seat 4: GypsyEX (24,020)
Seat 5: chislodc (18,860)
Seat 6: TyGraham11 (5,835)
Seat 7: RecessRampage (8,228)
Seat 8: rwestover (3,556)
Seat 9: PimpinDonks (15,481)
PocketJaKKd antes 100
Dianes_Place antes 100
attheLimit antes 100
GypsyEX antes 100
chislodc antes 100
TyGraham11 antes 100
RecessRampage antes 100
rwestover antes 100
PimpinDonks antes 100
TyGraham11 posts the small blind of 400
RecessRampage posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RecessRampage [4c As]
rwestover folds
PimpinDonks folds
PocketJaKKd folds
Dianes_Place folds
attheLimit folds
GypsyEX calls 800
chislodc folds
TyGraham11 calls 400
RecessRampage raises to 8,128, and is all in
GypsyEX has 15 seconds left to act
GypsyEX calls 7,328
TyGraham11 folds
RecessRampage shows [4c As]
GypsyEX shows [2c 2s]
*** FLOP *** [7c Ts 3h]
*** TURN *** [7c Ts 3h] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [7c Ts 3h 9h] [9s]
RecessRampage shows a pair of Nines
GypsyEX shows two pair, Nines and Twos
GypsyEX wins the pot (17,956) with two pair, Nines and Twos
RecessRampage stands up

The big stack limps from late position and the SB completes. At this point, I figured A4 was good enough to shove. Actually, I probably would shove here with ATC but LJ didn't like my shove with A4. She said that she hates shoving with A-rag. Personally, I would agree with that statement if I'm shoving from EP or if I'm shoving over the top of a raise. But the LP limp made me think he either had AA or he was weak. If he had Ax, he would have to raise, right? If he had KK, that's quite a gamble to let potentially two other people see the flop. So, the only "good" hand that he could do that with, IMO, was AA and since I had one A, I thought it might be unlikely. And so based on those things, I shoved, hoping to get a fold and pick up 3 BBs plus the antes. Again, since the pot is so big, I felt that I would have to fight for every pot. So, the question is, do you think this was a bad move? Should I just check and basically give up on the pot after the flop? To be honest, I was surprised with the call. The only reason he makes that call is because he had a big enough stack that even if he loses, it's only a third of his stack. And maybe that's what should have made me not shove. In other words, shoving on a big stack may not be the best thing to do. Any thoughts would be appreciated here.


Mike Maloney said...

-First hand, as long as this isn't something you've been doing a lot lately at that table, then yes, I think that's a move you can make. K-rag is most likely better than his holding, and there's a pretty small range that he's going to risk calling with. He happened to have J-J, but that happens. The push is a good aggressive move, but still a pretty safe move that will usually get you some chips.

-I'm with you on this. A limp from the big stack in LP is either a monster, AA or KK, or it's a crap hand that he wants to see a cheap flop on, most likely the latter. I know A-4 is a ghey hand to push with, but in this situation, it's probably the best hand, and you certainly have some fold equity. Awful call on his part, calling with Ducks for a third of his stack, by the way.

KajaPoker said...

Both hands only get called by better hands. K7 is trash in my opinion and is easily dominated by 77+ and K8+ so that range is going to hurt you a lot. And that's what happened.

Jamming with A4 is not a good idea. Even if the big stack limps it doesn't mean AA or trash. There is a big range there. I don't think calling with 22 is a great move by him, but you will get called by a lot of hands that beat you.

Stay patient.

Shrike said...

I'd prefer to stay patient. I prefer shoving with non K-high and A-high hands (where I'm easily dominated) in the majority of circumstances; that being said there's no shame in aggressively going after some dead money which is there for the taking.

AnguilA said...

1.- If he's tight and you think will not call unless he has a very good hand, you could do it with ATC as long as your table image is right.

2.- I don't usually like shoving onto big stacks unless I have a hand (obviously) or I've seen them laying hands down. They are much more likely to call, and you definitely don't want a call there (you're behind 44+, A5+ and coin flipping vs any other hand). I would have preferred to stay patient there.

I'd be more inclined to pull your move with 98 suited for example. You'd be coin flipping vs smaller pocket pairs and wouldn't be dominated by A-x. (Obviously with the intention of NOT being called)

Alan aka RecessRampage said...

Thanks for the comments so far. Great reading material.

Kaja, I understand that I'm dominated by 77+ and K-7+. However, the point of me jamming is that if I were him, what range am I willing to call off my stack with? I feel like I can get some better hands to fold for fear of being dominated by Ax (so he would surely fold K-9 and below and possibly A-5 or below). So I guess in my mind, K-7 was what I happened to have but in my mind, it didn't really matter what I had.

As for the A4 shove, believe me, I don't like that the cards I held were A4. But again here, I thought it was pretty much ATC. However, I think one point that I really should've given more thought is the fact that the big stack is much more likely to call so I definitely should have given that much more thought.

Please keep the comments coming. Thanks.

Ercüment Yalçın said...

Hi mate,

I am GypsyEX. happened to see your post while looking for something else. Actually i am kindda passive player and thats my way to play small pockets from even late positions especially if i have a comaprely bigger stack 3 times or more because with those stacks on tournament i know i wont have a chance to call if i raise and reraised with such a weak pair but i may afford to call a raise in that range assuming its a coinflip and giving enough odds considering you are not going to be eliminated if i lose. sorry for that hand. By the way i am luckily went very far in this tournament. i became first and i even won the later 4 ppl SNG. now i am looking for 3 pros HU match. no hard feelings and wish me luck! ;) regards

Alan aka RecessRampage said...

GypsyEX, I obv have no hard feelings. I just wanted to know if my move was a good one, bad one, etc. And you went on a heater after that. Nicely done! Congrats and good luck in the HU matches!!!

lightning36 said...

I go along with the sentiment for being a little more patient. With the King -- I'd want the other card to be a little higher before I'd jam.

I wouldn't jam with A-rag with a big stack there. I have seen two many big stacks call anything with garbage and win. Plus I think that Ace-rag is a bad hand for jamming in most circumstances anyway.

See ya at the tables!

CzechRazor said...

Hand 1: Jam is fine in my opinion. Folding K7 seems too passive and your opponent needs a strong hand in order to call you correctly for his tournament life.

Hand 2: I wouldn't jam. I don't know what his LP limp range is, but very doubtful it's total trash that cannot stand a raise. It could have been a hand like 89 suited, but I hate playing Ace-rag so I probably check-fold the flop and look to be the first one into a pot later.

Chad C said...

Hand 1: Easy fold IMO. There are two factors here for my decision.
Factor 1: You have an "M" of over 8, you can wait for a better spot.
Factor 2: Its a free roll, you are getting called by a wide variety of hands out of the blinds. K7 doesn't play very well against almost any hand....

Hand 2: I can't even tell you how many times I have told people not to shove Ace rag. People cannot fold AT-AK. The only time A-rag is better than say 79 soooted is against a monster pair so you will only be 1/ dog. But against AT-AK wouldn't you rather have 7-9 soooooted?

lucko said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lucko said...

Some real bad advice in these comments. The K7o hand you can type in the chat "I have K7o and I am going all in" and it would still be a profitable jam. The BB can't defend enough for it not to be the right play. Super standard jam.

The second one is pretty standard as well. The SB misplayed his hand pretty bad in my opinion. I would be jamming him a lot wider than A4o too.

Seriously, some real bad advice. Not jamming in both of these spots is a pretty big leak. NH's.

lucko said...

LOL, just looked at the K7o hand closer. Just to show how clear a jam it is, here is the optimal jamming range for this depth:

22+, A2+, K2+, Q5+, Q2s+, J7+, J2s+, T7+, T4s+, 97+, 95s+, 87+, 85s+, 76, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+

Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

I don't have much of an issue with the open-jam with K7o. It's an above average hand against ATC, and you're in a spot where the blinds should only be willing to call with a very small portion of their total hands. It always sucks to make a play like this and know you are 100% at the mercy of the blinds' cards, but at the same time as any tournament like this gets late, you will find yourself having to push again and again in spots like this. So I am fine with that push there. Also fine if you wanted to fold and wait for a better spot with an M of 8, but I think the push there is fine and it's something I would definitely be considering doing in that same spot.

On hand #2, I am really surprised at some of the comments here. Lucko's in particular. I think as a true open-raise, the jam once again makes good sense. But with a big stack already opting to limp in ahead of you, I think the odds of him calling your smaller jam are pretty decent, and he might even be limping a fairly strong hand. And under those circumstances, I do not like the push with A4. #1 you could already be behind and dominated by basically any other Ace. #2 the big stack (at least) is likely to call your push. And #3 with that horrible 4 in your hand, even if a guy calls you with a trash hand of his own -- say, for the sake of argument, 97o or 65s -- you're still only a very small favorite (probably roughly 55, 56% or so, right?). Under these circumstances I don't like the push with A4o in this spot.

Again though, if you were open-raising from the button instead of raising someone who already called you, and I think pushing from a short stack with any Ace is a fine move in this spot.

Nice post as always, I lovez me some hand analysis.

lucko said...

Bah, I missed the openlimper in the second hand. Looked at it too quick.

CzechRazor said...

Sweet. I was two for two. Heh.

CzechRazor said...

Both hands only get called by better hands. K7 is trash in my opinion and is easily dominated by 77+ and K8+ so that range is going to hurt you a lot. And that's what happened.

Flawed thinking and exactly why PokerStove is a good piece of software.

Because you're leaving out the part where the villain has to fold the majority of the time and we increase our stack size by 13% without having to show down a hand.

Alan aka RecessRampage said...

Hand #1, I'm fairly convinced that I will probably win those blinds more often than not. I guess that's ok.

Hand #2, with the presence of the late position limper being a big stack, everyone hated that move. One thing that I wonder though is that if the late position big stack would call an all in, why didn't he raise? (see comment from the actual villain since he left a comment on here. GypsyEX).

Again, if he had AA or KK, it was clearly a trap. But with any other hand, why would he limp call? Was my shove really a bad move? Everyone mentions that since he has a stack, he can call light. Well, if he's calling light, wouldn't he raise? I'm still baffled by the limp/call and as such, I guess I'm still trying to defend my play. Some mentioned that I could be dominated but aside from AK (and even that is very questionable), what other A-x hands would he NOT raise with? Do you really think it's possible someone would limp A-x in late position?

jamyhawk said...

Geeeeeze. You open up the RSS feeds and you end up getting more comments than ever...

I'll be sure to thank KAJA.

By the way. I play both hands exactly the same. Hand 2 is dependent on your read of the early limper. But with your bet, it's not like he can claim pot odds to call.

Nice post.

Sia said...

19 comments? Just wanted to make it an even 20. I have nothing constructive to add. Thank you.